dvh 13 hours ago

Apparently their beets looked the same as ours:

> The kind of beets used in such an ancient recipe should not be different from the beets we use today, even in name. We read in Dictionary of Assyrian Botany (by Campbell Thompson, 1948) that in the ancient Mesopotamian region it was called ‘shumundar,’ it was as red as blood, and has a spinning-top shape (pp. 49, 51).

  • gyanchawdhary 4 minutes ago

    Intresting. In Hindi/urdu it’s called “chukandar”

  • thaumasiotes 9 hours ago

    If it's any consolation, their lambs were nothing like ours.

    This period is early enough that sheep weren't yet sheared.

    • fsloth 2 hours ago

      Oh! So were sheep just for meat back then?

      • eru 44 minutes ago

        Maybe also for leather?

        And in nature sheep drop their coats without shearing.

        • wolfi1 33 minutes ago

          do they? there are reports of lost sheep which when found had a very thick fur or whatever the shepherds call it

          • eru 31 minutes ago

            Sorry, when I said in nature, I meant undomesticated sheep.

            Domesticated sheep that get lost for a while don't magically learn how to shed their coat, yes.

  • alephnerd 13 hours ago

    The recipe is also similar to Hamedh [0], a delicacy in Iraqi and Baghdadi Jewish households. The only major difference is the addition of tomatoes thanks to the Columbian Exchange, and rice - which would have not been cultivated or traded in West Asia yet.

    On that note, in Arabic, Farsi, and Hindustani the word for Tomato is essentially shared (tumatar/tamatimu) with the English word "tomato".

    But anyhow, a lot of home cooking and traditional meals actually have a pretty long history.

    [0] - https://www.splendidtable.org/story/2000/12/12/hamad-iraqi-b...

    • culi an hour ago

      > rice - which would have not been cultivated or traded in West Asia yet

      Surprisingly it was still imported in surprising quantities nearly 1000 years before it started to be cultivated. Not significant enough quantities for it to be a common staple, but still an interesting tidbit

    • amir_karbasi 9 hours ago

      Actually, in Persian, tomato is literally translated as “western plum”. This is common in our language as we usually say “western” or “foreign” as a prefix to many things that were introduced to Iran (strawberries, sit-style toilets, etc)

      • eru 42 minutes ago

        Austrians call tomatoes Paradeiser, from an older word for Paradise.

      • xattt 7 hours ago

        As an aside, tomatoes are golden apples (pomodoro), and oranges are Chinese apples (Apfelsin) in some languages.

        A lot of cultures appear to name botanicals using apples or, in GP’s context, stone fruit as “reference” points.

        • vladgur an hour ago

          Wow, апельсин - apelsin(Russian) makes total sense now

        • snthpy 2 hours ago

          Thank you for this. Knowing both those words, i could never work out the original/history of the terms.

        • fsckboy 2 hours ago

          >A lot of cultures appear to name botanicals using apples

          don't know if it makes the point or upends it, but the fruit in the Garden of Eden wasn't specifically an apple.

      • thrdbndndn 6 hours ago

        Chinese does the same thing, using prefixes like 西 (western), 番 (foreign), and 洋 (foreign) for introduced items.

        For tomatoes, interestingly, it has two common names that follow this pattern: 西紅柿, literally translated as "Western Red Persimmon", and 番茄, literally translated as "Foreign Eggplant".

        Other produce examples include 番薯 (Foreign Yam) for sweet potato, 西瓜 (Western Melon) for watermelon, 洋蔥 (Foreign Onion) for bulb onion etc.

        • dotancohen 6 hours ago

          The recorded English-language etymology for "ketchup" suggests that the word comes from one of the Chinese dialect's word for tomato. Do you have any idea which Chinese word sounds like ketchup?

          • thelibrarian an hour ago

            My personal theory based on nothing more than the vibe of the thing is that it comes from the Malay/Indonesian word ‘kecap’ (which is pronounced almost identically to “ketchup”), the word for sweet soy sauce. This is soy sauce that is thickened and sweetened with palm sugar, and I could see European cooks attempting to replicate it based on the vague descriptions given by sailors, and ending up with ketchup.

            • suddenlybananas 2 minutes ago

              It came from the Malay word, but the Malay word comes from Hokkien.

      • riffraff 9 hours ago

        Interesting, in various European languages those tend to be "Turkish": turkey hens (the bird called turkey now), Turkish corn (maize), Turkish beans (long beans).

        Again, trade routes.

        • selcuka 3 hours ago

          > Turkish corn (maize)

          And in Turkish maize is called "Mısır", which comes from the country name Egypt (which is also Mısır in Turkish).

          When Arabs conquered Egypt, they called it "Mishr" (مصر) which literally translates to "country" or "borderland". Maize was originally imported from the Americas, but because the trade route was through Egypt, Turkish people initially called it Egypt Wheat or Egypt Millet. In time, it is started to be called only Mısır/Egypt.

        • idontwantthis 8 hours ago

          In Panama they say Chino for foreign versions and in Cambodia they say barang which literally means Frankish (via farang from Thailand).

        • oldandboring 8 hours ago

          > maize

          Which, in turn, originated in Mexico and didn't make its way to Europe until the 1500s.

      • alephnerd 9 hours ago

        Appreciate the clarification!

        • amir_karbasi 8 hours ago

          My pleasure! I also find languages very interesting and have had the opportunity to grow up in a bilingual home and learn French and German.

          One more fun fact is that potato is a direct translation of the French “Pomme de terre” (“sib zamani” or “ground apple”).

          Back to the actual topic, this is a recipe that’s definitely worth trying. Persian shallots are actually more garlicky than oniony. A great addition to lamb dishes and yogurt.

          • dotancohen 6 hours ago

            Thank you! In Hebrew we literally call the potato תפוח אדמה which is "ground apple". Now I know where the idea comes from.

        • abtinf 3 hours ago

          It is not a “clarification”. You are wrong and are spreading misinformation. In Farsi, the word for tomato is gojeh farangi.

    • dotancohen 6 hours ago

        > On that note, in Arabic, Farsi, and Hindustani the word for Tomato is essentially shared (tumatar/tamatimu) with the English word "tomato".
      
      In the Levant we use the word بندورا "bindora" in Arabic for tomato.
harel 7 hours ago

Coincidentally this book which has been a labour of love of his creator is going into print this week: https://www.tableofgods.com

It's quite expensive though, but it does look amazing.

eikenberry 12 hours ago

Close to a recipe on Tasting History... https://www.tastinghistory.com/recipes/babylonianlambstew Our current favorite dinner watching along with Alton Brown.

  • 3RTB297 9 minutes ago

    Came here to mention Max Miller as well. Amazing work putting together historical context and recipes. Always fun, fascinating, and the recipes are generally very approachable.

    I've also made the Babylonian stew from this recipe, and it's rich and hearty. It's easy to see how this would knock the...sandals off of ancient people.

    Other ancient recipes...let's just say that humans have very much not held the same tastes over the eons. Some recipes were incongruent or sweet and savory in a strange way, or simply a flex about how many spices you had access to and cold throw in a dish, not about what it really tasted like. YMMV.

  • Rendello 11 hours ago

    I've made this Roman recipe probably a dozen times and everyone who's tried it really likes it [1].

    The strange ingredients are garum [2] and asafoetida [3]. The former is just a fish sauce, so that's not hard to substitute, but you have to find asafoetida on the Internet or at an Indian food store.

    1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LynenQ5h2Y

    2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garum

    3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asafoetida

    • jamal-kumar 3 hours ago

      I can usually find hing (asafoetida) in grocery stores in certain more populous parts of Canada in the spice section, it's quite a good garlic substitute for those who can't do garlic

  • ilc_genesis_01 7 hours ago

    Yep, this is a great shoutout and I'm also a big TH fan. If you haven't yet, check it out!

  • greatquux 8 hours ago

    Yes! Came here to recommend Max. His cookbook is also educational and interesting and some of the recipes are even good! :-)

johnohara 29 minutes ago

The Babylonian Collection was left to Yale by J.P. Morgan in 1913. His estate at the time was estimated to be worth about $68.3M ($1.59B in 2024 dollars).

When I read that on his wikipedia page I thought "is that all?" I know I'm probably missing a bunch of other considerations, but geez, the 500th spot on the 2024 Forbes World's Billionaires list was shared by multiple individuals worth approximately $5.8B.

comrade1234 12 hours ago

How's the presentation? Just imagining it, it would seem that the meet would have a weird color.

  • debo_ 11 hours ago

    It looks great. When I first saw it, I thought "this color can't be beet"

cantalopes 8 hours ago

Gonna be quite challenging to get "1/2 cup of rendered sheep fat"

  • strken 7 hours ago

    In Australia where lamb is more common than in the US, it'd be pretty easy to keep the fat after roasting a lamb shoulder, or to freeze the fatty offcuts from forequarter chops and render them after I had enough.

  • jp0d 7 hours ago

    Lamb is quite popular down here in Australia. I usually keep some rendered fat from my roasts etc. Sometimes I cook other meats with it and it adds heaps of flavour. I do that with pork fat as well.

  • mermadicsolutio 7 hours ago

    I was able to get some tail fat from a halal butcher. But never seen lamb fat anywhere else

  • ardit33 2 hours ago

    Easy... Just go to a Trader's Joe, and get a lamb leg and roast it....

  • s0rce 7 hours ago

    if you have a good butcher they might be able to get you some that you can render, but its a hassle. I've done this for beef fat to make some british pie things.

  • dyauspitr 6 hours ago

    Lamb is usually the red meat of choice, other than pork, almost everywhere besides the US.

    • hulitu 3 hours ago

      You should visit Europe.

      • badc0ffee an hour ago

        Or Japan, or Canada, or Argentina, or Brazil, or Chile, or...

yubblegum 10 hours ago

I'm reading Lloyd Llewellyn-Jones' Babylon - The Biography of a Metropolis which just recently came out, and that's how I ended up hearing about Yale's culinary adventures.

The book, btw, is kind of breezy in style and 'he of many LLs in his name' (Lālu-mullālu in Akkadian as suggested by my friendly AI) uses a lot of contemporary pop (nerdy) references to carry the narrative, yet very engaging and am learning a lot about this fabled city (and civilization).

It sets certain records straight ...

PeterHolzwarth 7 hours ago

What's enlightening is how astonishingly little salt is used, by our standards.

  • peri-cl 6 hours ago

    The ingredient ratios are the Yale researchers' interpretation—they're not from the source text,

    https://www.laphamsquarterly.org/roundtable/ancient-mesopota...

    > "Like most premodern cooking manuals, the Babylonian recipes rarely list the quantities of each ingredient, and so basic experimentation is needed to determine viable proportions for the assembly of a dough or the salting of a stew. The “experimental” approach likewise offers answers to questions that can only be addressed through trial and error. For example, many of the identifications of herbs proposed by modern scholars are based mainly on medical compendia, and some of the plants thus identified can produce an extremely bitter or perhaps pungent taste when used in food."

    Here's the recipes as literally translated (I used tesseract to OCR):

    > "Unwinding. Meat is not used. You prepare water. You add fat. (You add) kurrat, cilantro, salt as desired, leek, garlic. You pound up dried sourdough, you sift (it) and you scatter (it) over the pot before removing it."

    > "Stew of lamb. Meat is used. You prepare water. You add fat. You add fine-grained salt, dried barley cakes, onion, Persian shallot, and milk. [You crush] (and add) leek and garlic."

    > "Elamite broth. Meat is not used. You prepare water. You add fat. Dill, kurrat, cilantro, leek, and garlic bound with blood, a corresponding amount of sour milk, and (more) garlic. The (original) name (of this dish) is Zukanda."

    > "Tuh’u. Leg meat is used. You prepare water. You add fat. You sear. You fold in salt, beer, onion, arugula, cilantro, Persian shallot, cumin, and red’ beet, and [you crush] leek and garlic. You sprinkle coriander on top. [You add] kurrat and fresh cilantro."

lettergram 6 hours ago

If you like this, you may like the "Tasting History" YouTube channel - https://www.youtube.com/@TastingHistory

He basically covers a different historic dish every week ranging from the oldest recorded dishes to cafeteria food from 1990; or what they served on the Titanic, etc.

It's a great channel, and covers history well.

mermadicsolutio 7 hours ago

Honestly the recipe sounds like adding beets to a regular lamb stew recipe. If I havent watch this video and saw the dish, I would think some fancy restaurant is trying to be "innovative"

analog8374 12 hours ago

I dislike lamb but the rest sounds great. Maybe I could sub beef.

dyauspitr 6 hours ago

I mean, this had to be a dish for royalty or something right? How on earth that they have all of those fresh and dried ingredients on hand 4000 years ago.

  • tensor 4 hours ago

    No, it's common. People today have no idea how truly poor they eat. Modern fast food is essentially fake food paste.

  • ardit33 2 hours ago

    2/3rds of those herbs grow in the garden of my home as just weed (this in Albania), including mint, cilantro, origano and more.

    While some have to be cultivated, a lot these herbs just grow as weeds in the Mediterranean area.

  • sophacles 4 hours ago

    Most of them seem like a pretty common kitchen garden to me.

    And all of the plants are native to that area, or close enough that people who had been farming for a few thousand years at that point would have brought them from neighboring lands to use.

thataccount 4 days ago

[flagged]

  • tom_ 13 hours ago

    Curious indeed that the Yale Babylonian Collection should, out of all the possible options, choose the cooking of Ancient Babylon. I wonder what we should read into this. I have some theories, but it might be dangerous for me even to mention that I have them.

  • yubblegum 4 days ago

    Cradle of civilization is not an odd culture. Babylon, meaning Gate of God, is one of the more profoundly influential urban civilizational clusters in human history.

    • thataccount 4 days ago

      [flagged]

      • ahazred8ta 3 days ago

        To an archeologist, 'civilization' refers to builders of walled cities inhabited by non-farmers with complex social sructure, division of labor, and usually some form of taxation. Highly moral hunter gatherers living in mud huts are not a 'civilization' in this context. Now you know.

        • thataccount 3 days ago

          [flagged]

          • krapp 3 days ago

            The vast majority of Africans aren't hunter-gatherers living in mud huts. They have actual cities with highways and skyscrapers and everything.